There have been some rumors flying around of some changes that are coming in an attempt to create a greater balance between the different classes, specifically some nerfs to some Mage spells.
This is the place to offer suggestions, comments and criticisms concerning any balance issues you see in the game. The more input we get the more informed decision the DM can make.
38 comments:
Obviously offering Subraces and or Gear that gives some sort of Spell Resistance will help with balance, rather than just nerfing a bunch of spells and calling it good.
Ah look at the nice banner, very cool. Well it seems we can nag all we want here, so I'll start with saying what I've other players had to say about it.
Of course the main issue here are the bigby's hands. So far BL usually degenerates mages to dumb, grappling igms spamming battleships. And though that's not entirely to my liking at least they can do SOMETHING.
I've heard some things about a discipline check, and though it might sound fair this would be total rape for bigbys forcefull hand since it's roll can't ever get over 34. And well, pretty much everything around lvl 25 has more discipline than.
Terry came up with the suggestion that if it would require a disc. check it would only be fair to allow it have unlimited uses making it the equivalent of knockdown.
This seems right except for the fact of course the 1d20 + 14 check of the caster won't change where kd gets an ab check wich would rise with lvls. Maybe this should then require a caster lvl + ability modifier vs. said disc. check.
Next up is the 'other' bigby hand known as the crushing hand. This one is pretty much screwed here, I've heard things about dexers reaching nearly 130 AC. Now if that's dexers I take it most str builds can reach 90 AC easily.
The roll for crushing hand is d20 + caster's ability modifier + caster level + 12 - 1. vs target's AC.
Now that's never gonna hit a thing, and it's one of the very few defenses a mage has against a (possibly devving) kding melee toon.
The way I understand badlands, is the rock/paper/scissors comparison. So a mage is supposed to be able of obliterating a melee toon, and get his ass handed to him on a plate vs a monk.
Mages are badasses, plain and simple.
Come to think of it. Wasn't a big problem the ridiculously high saves you can get on Uber servers like BadLands. It actually makes all the other mage spells worthless in PvP, so once you take away Bigbys Forcefull Hand and add Spell Resistance it makes using a mage pretty pointless. If anything I think mages should be granted more freedoms, not less.
Here are some thoughts :
Saves - You can put +6 on necklace and both rings.
*So +18 all saves.
You can put +12 on Dex, Con and Wis.
*So +6 all saves.
For levels 21 to 60, you automatically get +1 to saves per 2 levels.
*So +20 all saves.
Total = +44 on all saves.
To get any save lower than a 50 takes some serious work.
This affects all casters and dev critters.
Spell DC - Using any spell with a DC, is almost pointless, unless you could cast it 20 times to get it to land once on
average.
Dev Crit - Since you don't have limited uses on Dev Crit and you can do it multiple times per round, it can still have
some "small" impact in PvP.
Bigby's Spells - If you add a discipline check, Make it a Skill vs. Skill check. Spellcraft vs. Discipline maybe. At least a
mage can have a chance of making that roll. Keep in mind, a saving roll always fails on a 1 and always succeeds on a
20. With a skill roll, a 1 can still succeed, and a 20 can fail. Also, I don't think they should have 2 checks for chance of
failure. Use "as is" or drop that test for the discipline check.
Damage Shields - Stacking damage shields is not a spell. It is a synergy (when the whole is greater than the sum the
parts) of spells. It is overpowered. Nerfing the stacking of damage shields, I think is a good idea.
IGMS - Nerfing these by reducing the damage to 1d6 per level, may balance Player vs. Boss, but I don't think it works
for PvP. Adding a reflex save makes them useless vs. anyone with evasion, and a great way to waste time against
everyone else while they kill you alot faster. Without nerfs, Mages can easily kill one class of builds, and get owned by
another class of builds. That by definition is "play balance".
Merchant pricing - Not sure how nerfing the prices merchants buy and sell at, works for PvP balance or even Player vs,
Boss. Restricting the money flow on a PvP server just gives the older players an even bigger advantage. Which I think in
the long run will discourage new players from staying. They will get owned not because the other guy's build is better,
but because the crappier build has better gear. I think I would get frustrated and quit after a while.
Thoughts, Part 2 (Yeah, maybe I think too much) :
Play Balance vs. all casters - Nerfing mages at all is a little unfair. It's like "detuning" one guy's car engine to make the
race more even, but not taking into account that you already took the wheels off his car. Everyone can be IMMUNE to all casters if they want to. Just buy those Stacks of Spell Mantle scrolls that Coori sells in Dozo. I play mostly cleric and mage builds, but I'm willing to live with the scrolls being there. But how much more is gonna happen to us casters?
Variety and Excitement - On the previous version of this server (called Abominog), one of the things I loved (yes, I said loved), was the random loot system. Items where generated randomly. Some were really crappy, but sellable for gold (upgrades past level 21 are crazy expensive), some where really interesting, and a rare few where very useful. The drops scaled up with the power of the monsters, and I would be excited to loot every corpse. Now I see unlooted corpses all the time. The loot that drops off the monsters in the level 40+ areas, is the exact same loot that drops off the rats in Dozo Ruins. I feel like all I can do now is "grind" exp, and "farm" gold. The players with boss hunters also farm the class sets of armor (I'm really glad to see them again!) As far as the play balance of those random drop items; if everyone can find and use them, how is that not balanced?
Play Balance - Play balance for Role Playing, PvP and Player vs. Bosses, are all different. I think you can come close on any one of those. I don't think you can for all of them.
Role Play - you make a hard, slow but rewarding trip.
Player vs. Bosses - it's probably easiest to adjust the bosses. Make some only killable with melee, and some only with casters. Make a room or rooms, filled with Henchmen. If the Boss is easiest to kill with melee, make the henchmen easiest to kill with casters. If the Boss is easiest to kill with Casters, make the henchmen easiest to kill with melee. You can adjust AC, AB, Spell/Damage Type Immunities, and vulnerablities. Give some of the henchmen "True Sight" and/or put a key on the "head" henchman, and put the boss behind a locked door. Can't get more balanced than that. You could keep the bosses area "as is", and splice in a link to the henchmen area or areas. I wouldn't mind seeing certain bosses only dropping items for only 1 or 2 gear slots. Like Meph drops only Shield or Cloaks, and Rak only Gloves and Necklace. All sets, include body, helm, boots, and belts. The other 2 items will be a either a Shield or Cloak, and a Necklace or Gloves. If you did that, it would probably be best if you took out the part where bosses drop items from the looters class.
PvP - That's the hard one, and will probably be a work in progress for a long time.
Horses and Shape Change Stone - possible fix is to put in a script that dismounts you and changes you back to your normal form before you log out or when you disconnect.
Class Sets with Shield - Is it possible to put in a NPC that can change out a Tower Shield for a Large or Small Shield for those races that can't use a Tower Shield? Sucks to be a Halfling Paladin that can't use his full set.
Disclamer - All of the above is only my opinion, and may not necessarily reflect reality... Read at your own risk!
OMG, I just thought of something else!
Are Potion Bottles or Bone Wands gonna be added?
If they dropped from monster in the lowbie areas, it might be a good way for players new to the server to make some gold off of the older player.
I just play for fun mostly
and as of latley noticed the mages killing the bosses
I can allways make a Mage one day I will :)
This evening I was playing and I thought hey let's kill some bosses and finally get that wizard set complete. However I painfully found out a few things about my mage and how he had been nerfed.
My maxed IGMS and the ONLY WAY to do some actually damage on 80 reflex save bosses had been nerfed. Badly.
Each maxed missile got a 54 DC and every boss rolled his dice, this accumulated to the monstruous saves that bosses already have and rolled a nice 90something against my IGMS. Did I mention that's the only way to do damage against anything here for a mage?
After that I tried casting some magic missiles on the outsider near newport. They did an average of 8 damage each, and I got 10 on him in total.
A 1st level spell is more use than a 6th level IGMS, this is friggin ridiculous. I got told that the average save is 50, now if my DC is 54 there's no way anyone will ever want to play a mage again.
I know that a mage is powerfull, but all the time badlands has nerfed mages into dumbass igms spammers already. What're we gonna do now that everyone is gonna save against our IGMS? I'm sorry but this is over the top really, we can't wail people to death anymore, we can't igms spam em to death, we can't facepalm them to at least keep them at bay.
All a mage can do now is prolong his death by using time stop once and spam his healkits while his attacker is killing himself on the acid sheath if that didn't get dispelled already getting knocked on his ass all the time.
Right next question, Harm 6th lvl cleric spell. 1 dmg per caster lvl, do you hate magic that much?
I Would like to get some input on something that i think needs to be looked at before we get to far along.
Which is the issue of level 40 weapons. The idea i had was to even the playing field for non-magic using characters so the magic users didn't have the advantage of casting on their EB. It would force clerics and mages to buy +10 EB weapons just like a fighter. The problem is if you don't buy the +10 EB the weapon can be stacked with far too much damage allowing a dexer to do 200 (and if Deurack has his way) 300 points of damage per hit.
Please express your thoughts on this issue. I don't want to get too far down the road and find out that it's not going to work and the server will have to be wiped because of it!!
DM: Griff
Hey now, the build doing 200+ points of damage is a Weapon Master with a crit multiplier of X3, so the hit is actually only doing 60 - 70 points of actual damage. That being said, I F*@king love doing that much damage :P
Gotta do some work, more to come on this topic :-)
Like I said, I love doing that much damage with a Weapon Master, having that much elemental damage available on a weapon has me making more WM's than I ever have before.
That being said, in the interest of balance, I think the current system might be slightly overpowered. Not too much, but a little. When a build with 16 Max Str averages 60 damage per hit and a build with 70 Max Str only does 30 damage more, there's not alot of incentive to make a Str build.
I'm not sure how the system could be "balanced" without wrecking it. Putting a +1 Enhancement gem in every socketted item that drops would ensure that at least one of the "sockets" would be taken by Enhancement. That's less elemental available on the weapon.
I haven't seen any notes in-game or on this blog, so I thought I would list some changes I've found...
Shape Changer (could change to anything) was changed to Appearance Changer (could change to other PC looks only).
Appearance Changer is now gone.
Greater Magic Weapon was changed from +10 to +6 (Clerics will now Dominate over Melees again).
Bless, Aid, and Prayer was changed back to +1 from +2.
That's all I've found so far.
*****
Personal note.
I'm finding it frustrating.
1) Most servers add content as time goes on. I know that several things are planned. But so far I've seen some needed fixes, and several fun things taken away. Mostly in the name of play balance. From my point of view, if everyone has access to it, then by definition it's "Balanced", and doesn't need "Fixing". Seems like more time is spent taking stuff out of the game than putting stuff in.
2) I've had some of my builds made Obsolete by the nerfs and the only way to fix them would be to remake them from scratch. Kinda painful to see your level 60 turned into junk after all the time you spent leveling.
Anyway, I just felt the need to vent a little.
I haven't been around too long, I do know though lately whatever they have been meaning to do has been put on hold from trying to fix the hgll system and make it stable again.
July 16, 2009 5:38 PM
Blogger Terry17 said...
I haven't seen any notes in-game or on this blog, so I thought I would list some changes I've found...
Shape Changer (could change to anything) was changed to Appearance Changer (could change to other PC looks only).
Appearance Changer is now gone.
Greater Magic Weapon was changed from +10 to +6 (Clerics will now Dominate over Melees again).
Bless, Aid, and Prayer was changed back to +1 from +2.
That's all I've found so far.
*****
Personal note.
I'm finding it frustrating.
1) Most servers add content as time goes on. I know that several things are planned. But so far I've seen some needed fixes, and several fun things taken away. Mostly in the name of play balance. From my point of view, if everyone has access to it, then by definition it's "Balanced", and doesn't need "Fixing". Seems like more time is spent taking stuff out of the game than putting stuff in.
2) I've had some of my builds made Obsolete by the nerfs and the only way to fix them would be to remake them from scratch. Kinda painful to see your level 60 turned into junk after all the time you spent leveling.
Anyway, I just felt the need to vent a little.
I have said this to a few people but for those of you that have not heard it I'll say it again. If a change in the server changes the way your build works or or makes it useless let me know and I'll be glad to let you re-roll it.
P.S. I will not entertain the idea that an exploit is ok as long as everyone can do it!!
I think skills can be used to encourage parties and roleplay. A skill like open lock, disarm trap, search, etc. can be used to encourage bringing a rogue along. You could also use a persuade/intimidate/bluff skill check in conversations that would open up a side hunt for that class or character.
Any boss trip that uses these different skills in order to move on would be a blast I think. Have to plan ahead and get the right group together!
Also, by encouraging the taking of more intelligence in order to have more skills; it will penalize the ones who don't take the int and reward the ones who have some skills.
I just found out that someone is using disarm against other players. I actually don't mind that being used during combat. However, keeping the weapon is something altogether different. Especially for new players, the difference between being successful or not is likely to depend on your weapon. That's why we spend so much time/money on them. The consequences of this feat being used are just way out of proportion. There is no other way I know of where someone can steal an item from you, and that's what this is; stealing.
I can see this leading up to a LOT of revenge and a@@hole killings.
Frankly, why even have the server rule about not using disarm to piss other players off? Disarming and taking my weapon is going to really piss me off!!
Too bad you can't make it so when disarm is successful the item goes in your inventory, not on the ground. That way everyone can be happy - the ones who took the feat can still use it to disarm you for the pvp battle, but can't take it from you forever.
I am not alone in this. So, you people who agree with me, speak up!
Aramia said
Too bad you can't make it so when disarm is successful the item goes in your inventory, not on the ground. That way everyone can be happy - the ones who took the feat can still use it to disarm you for the pvp battle, but can't take it from you forever.
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you can set it up like that but the person can just re-equip the item the moment you disarm them...
btw when you are disarmed your weapon hits the ground meaning you can run and grab it as well.
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also said
There is no other way I know of where someone can steal an item from you, and that's what this is; stealing.
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ummm Pick Pocket you can do far far worse with PickPocket than disarm. grasping hand them and pp them for ages, assassin death attack stun them pp them, kill them pp them, hide and follow them around pick pocketing them.
thats just some of the things you can do with just little pick pocket
Griff put in the rule about disarm for lowbies leveling and new players so they could get started before losing stuff they worked hard for.
Personal if i see a mage with a weapon and their not a new player im going to disarm them why because.
1. low disc
2. low ac
3. depending on the mage a good weapon
4. i can trade it back to them for something i need or want
and why were on this point disarming a person means there going to come and disarm you when they get a chance. So eye for an eye really.
Forgotten
July 25, 2009 1:18 AM
Anonymous Aramia said...
I just found out that someone is using disarm against other players. I actually don't mind that being used during combat. However, keeping the weapon is something altogether different. Especially for new players, the difference between being successful or not is likely to depend on your weapon. That's why we spend so much time/money on them. The consequences of this feat being used are just way out of proportion. There is no other way I know of where someone can steal an item from you, and that's what this is; stealing.
I can see this leading up to a LOT of revenge and a@@hole killings.
Frankly, why even have the server rule about not using disarm to piss other players off? Disarming and taking my weapon is going to really piss me off!!
Too bad you can't make it so when disarm is successful the item goes in your inventory, not on the ground. That way everyone can be happy - the ones who took the feat can still use it to disarm you for the pvp battle, but can't take it from you forever.
I am not alone in this. So, you people who agree with me, speak up!
I started playing Badlands when there was only 1 Badlands module on the net. It was version 1096.
There was 70-75 players on and most of them were PKers. my first trip into pvp lasted about 5 minutes before i was turned to stone disarmed and my inventory was pick pocketed clean!
This is the way of things! that is why its called Badlands and not happy little care bare lands!!
If any of the old Badlands players come here to play they will be quite annoyed by the no disarming lowbies restriction that I have place on the feat!
The more this mod grows the more you will need to be ready to defend yourself at all times.
I will clarify these issues in the next update make sure you update your journal and READ it!!!!
DM: Griff
I have been misinformed about pickpocket then. I was told it is worthless here. That is the only reason I said it was the only way to take stuff from other players.
I stand corrected.
ok i am sick of HELL BALL!!!! IT IS TOTAL BULL SH*T... the unremoveable blindness than gives a mage the advantage in melee over a monk built to kill mages of any kind i even can use scrolls you no what i cant even get a scroll that can remove this... and true seeing over rides the blindness so i'm f***ed vs hell ball. change this before i perma blind new players so they help me bitch! (i no this is sad but its outrageous when a mage kills a SR monk in melee when the monk has 90+ ac...)
also can u make it so if you die in a terry that you cant port to death spot it makes wars pointless....
Forgotten
I have already fixed it so you can't death bind to an area with a territory marker in it and I'm looking into hell ball now.
Forgotten, there's this little thing called "Punctuation". You should look into it, it's a good thing. I read posts like yours and all I can do is shake my fists in impotent wrath at the utter failure that is the public school system in this country.
Our tax dollars hard at work :(
lol sorry :( never was a very good English student, about all i did do well in was speeches.
You can "shake my fists in impotent wrath" all you want it's kind of who i am now. It's not the easiest thing for me to change, you know bad habits and all.
btw what has this got to do with game balance...
Forgotten
Griff... Didn't you say you FIXED using the death portal to port back into territories.
it still works...
this may be a off topic but carfull of qpalzm2 alis Large one he is rez killing low level chars for cheap kill did it to my level 31 pally
Griff said: There was 70-75 players on and most of them were PKers. my first trip into pvp lasted about 5 minutes before i was turned to stone disarmed and my inventory was pick pocketed clean!
This is the way of things! that is why its called Badlands and not happy little care bare lands!!
If any of the old Badlands players come here to play they will be quite annoyed by the no disarming lowbies restriction that I have place on the feat!
Rock on ^..^
Flatfoot said...
this may be a off topic but carfull of qpalzm2 alis Large one he is rez killing low level chars for cheap kill did it to my level 31 pally
You should really tell the whole story here. Large One killed you, rezzed you (because that was the custom on the last pvp he played on)and then when you attacked him he auto-defended and killed you again by mistake. He then rezzed you again and left you alone.
He has been told to kill and not rez which is what he will do from now on. Please get your facts straight before accusing someone of something. This is a pvp after all.
Strange point: Alizee--TEST seems to be a bit out of the ordinary. She is level 17 and killing bosses and other players. My AB around 70and could barely hit. Just seems odd is all.
Main point: I think tensor's transformation should no longer be sold in the Arcane Library. Frankly, I would love to see it made so that ONLY wiz/sorc can use the spell. I admit to using the scrolls myself, but it just seemed too cheap. A spell like tensor's transformation being cast on a primarily melee toon is just way too much. The spell is meant to let a mage become a fighter for a short period of time, not so that a fighter can raise his already high AB (due to +1 every fighter level etc) even higher.
Banning the spell completely would penalize the mages. At least take the scrolls out of the Arcane Library so they aren't sold anywhere. That way they at least have to make a mage, take scribe scroll and make their own tensors.
Please never mind about Alizee--TEST, the matter has been resolved.
If I knew how to edit my comments I would delete the first paragraph.
I could bitch and bitch about the TT scroll thing but i really don't see the point, The scroll is to easy to get but should NOT be removed, maybe make a secret shop or something.
Next point the shop in newport dock territory. How can a mage pk or defend this territory, when the sec you cast a spell it says... you casted on the vendor DIE...
last point this might annoy a few people who love the game to be easy but this is really annoying, bosses are far far to easy to kill and people just non-stop farm them with ONE toon and power level people from 1 to i don't no what. Making bosses harder so you need a group of 2-3 people would make the boss hunting thing far more interesting and fun. I really don't want to even mention this but maybe have the bosses de-spawn if players are all dead so they cant just attack die, attack die, until the boss dies, just so its more of a challenge.
Forgotten
Griff this is a personal request that relates a lot to game balance, the blank scrolls on this server allow a player to make scrolls such as acid sheath, mord, hands and anything else they need. I believe this is a massive unbalance because a PURE melee build with 1 level bard can use mages powerful support spells, for
examples: acid sheath so if they get hit their enemy takes 80 damage.
interposing hand to remove 10 ab for the enemy.
This might even be able to be used with mass heal so that you can make a 400 hp heal.
Please remove Blank Scrolls.
Forgotten
I kinda like the way the bosses are set up right now. It keeps the server going. And there is a way to keep people out of territories by defending them. There is enough time to port to the territory (by using your guild book for those that might not know that), after you have seen them get the boss kill on shout. You can trap your territories, and all kinds of other stuff to protect them. Plus new people need to keep up to par with the other players by getting items easily. It can generate alot of pvp.
I think adding a few more bosses or a set of bosses a team as Forgotten had said, could kill with a better or rare variety of prizes is a good idea. That would be fun :)
One thing that bothers me is the little green port stone...only 3 uses per rest drives me nutz.
Oh and btw the "Dark Evil" guild should pick a new name plz since I use Evil in all my names and have since I got NWN so back up off it! I see a bunch of you on all with Evil in your names...Makes it look like Im in your guild when Im not :P (if ya dont ill get you my pretty and your little summons too!) Just a simple request really :o
Uhm...what else...oh yea, would it be possible to remove mephits from the Tower of Power all together? They are annoying when going to the boss, and Im pretty sure they dont despawn which is annoying to people who like to level there with the Ritualists at lower levels later on.
I also wanted to ask about maybe adding something to classes that arent used so much. Like Purple Dragon Knight, Champion of Torm, Harper Scouts. I have some ideas for it, I'll let you know in game since Ive blabbed enough on here for tonight :)
What's up monk?
Well, dunno for sure, monks usually make the best melee toons, but since TT scrolls are gone forever, they can hardly hit anything, they all said to me...
Besides, it's strange that no one uses the monk set, isn't it, I asked them... Well, can you find a single good reason for using it, they answered me...
I was forced to admit that an insignificant damage reduction is more funny than useful on that set, mostly considering that monks are really hard to hit...
With this useless property, the monk set sure looks pale comparing to any other set, wich can boost AB, give concealment, and even give crits immunity...
I certainly understand that monks are so powerful that it's hard to "help" them without unbalancing the game, however, I'm sure it's possible to give players at least one good reason to use the set. Otherwise, why does the set exist?
So, plz make the set attractive or make vendors sell TT scrolls at 10,000 gold or the like...
Long live Badlands
I realllly wish the bosses would go back to the way it was before. Every time I go boss hunting theres no bosses left...Territories should be able to be reclaimed and fought for way more often in my opinion. Sometimes theres noone even on and the terries cant be reclaimed for use and the xp benefits. Once every hour or hour and a half would be good 2 hrs I think is too long.
Yeah, I agree. The bosses should respawn after a certain period of time. Something like or 16 to 24 d10 Turns would probably work well. That would keep the interval random, but still somewhat predictable at the same time. The above example would have the bosses respawning between 1 and a half to 2 hours 10 min on average. If the dice rolled really high or really low it could be much sooner or much later. This way people would know that there's a possibility of claiming a territory in the future while not being able to set their clocks by it.
If that's not possible, is there a way to make the server reset itself on a regular basis? I dont know if it's set up that way now, but it doesnt seem like it. This basically creates a race to kill the bosses but that's not really a bad thing. It can be fun racing to a boss and finding other people there. I've had some fun fights in those situations...anyway, I'm rambling now so I'm gonna shut up.
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